Do you object.....

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Would you object to the Mods editing post that contains the Lord's name taken in vain?

Poll ended at Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:02 pm

Yes
8
25%
No
16
50%
Don't care either way
8
25%
 
Total votes : 32

Postby gregoing » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:07 am

Hmm... I just noticed that I haven't yet posted what I think about this. First of all, let it be known that I am a Christian. As a Christian, I do not like it when I see that people write things like "Oh, my G*d," or "Jesus Christ," or things like that. However, I'm not offended. I'm just not the kind of person to be offended at things.

With that said, I think it to be somewhat ironic that people who do not believe in God, in fact, claim God to be their God when they say "Oh, my G*d." So that makes me wonder why people even say that. I think that's very interesting, for the simple fact that I love reading and writing, and almost everything having to do with language, so I notice things like that. I know that I used to say things - not like this, but other things - that I didn't agree with, but I would say them out of habit. Finally, when I realized I was saying things that 1) bothered other people, and 2) even I myself didn't agree with, I made it a point to change what I was saying. Yes, it was hard, but in the end, I was happy, and so was everyone else. In saying this, I am not trying to offend anyone in the least; I'm just saying that people here on the forums who are used to saying things like "Oh, my G*d" might consider making new habits and saying new things that 1) don't bother others, and 2) they themselves agree with - things that don't contradict their own beliefs. Hmm... I hope that wasn't confusing! Thanks, everyone!

-Greg

EDIT: I'm a moderator, and have the ability to edit people's posts. But let me speak now not as a moderator, but as an individual. I would not like someone editing my posts without letting me know. I think that if someone edited my post and PMd me to let me know 1) what they took out/replaced, 2) what they inserted, and 3) why, I would most likely be OK with it. I think we should all be very conscious of what we write, and also careful that what we write does not offend someone else. That's why I probably spent 30 minutes making sure this post is worded well! OK - this time I will go! Thanks!
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Postby skippy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:24 am

One thing to consider is this. People (including myself) sometimes say "oh my god" or similar things, not to be offensive, and not because they are 'against god', but because it is a common figure of speech that is used instinctively. It is often said without intending to cause offense, or even without realising it can cause offense.

To implicitly reprimand a person who writes these words can be seen by some as slightly insulting in itself. People do not all believe in the same god; some even think the concept of a god as nonsense. Those people will inevitably find it harder to understand any offense such words can cause. I am a non-believer, but I care about people and never seek to cause harm intentionally.

I am against such changes by moderators. It smacks of political correctness to me, and I do not understand the need for it.

Hugs for anyone offended by my comments :) But I am a decent, intelligent person and I'm entitled to my views too! Incidentally, I often stop myself at the last moment and say "oh my goodness" instead; however, nobody can be expected to remember this always!
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Postby Phantas » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:32 am

I just wondered...what about the short version of it: OMG ?

Would that be edited out as well? :shock:

The phrase itself is sometimes only used as a matter of shock, or surprise to be fairly honest. As in "OMG, that's really big!" (note I used the short version now only to emphasize the phrase and not to cause any 'offence' ).

In this case I would be very conspicuous of a believer who may be offended by it. It's quite innocent.

To continue on the "god" word - those who do not believe in the Christian god could mean a wholly different god ;) It may have been perceived in the way that this 'god' represented the Christian god, but it's only a word. No-one truly knows what or who god is, right?

Just wondering....

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Postby Angoid » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:52 am

As for OMG, one could mentally restranslate it upon reading it as "Oh my gosh!" or "Oh my goodness!" :wink:
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Postby Kosma [PL] » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:58 am

Phantas wrote:I just wondered...what about the short version of it: OMG?

Would that be edited out as well? :shock:

Not to mention 'OMFG'.

For me those two should be edited out (or, better, not used at all) - they are more appropriate for some IRC channels (the OMFG L000L PWNT!!!!111 style ones), not Moya forum.
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Postby Ardens » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:29 pm

I can understand that some people feel uneasy when certain terms are used, but I can also understand that some people bother mods editing their posts without letting them know.
The easiest solution would be not to use these these terms. And if it happens accidently, someone could ask the person to edit it.
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Postby Littlefoot Took » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:00 pm

I agree with many voices here....and honestly...I think we are all friendly enough, and respectful enough that if something DOES make it onto a post, I am certian that the poster will be sensitive enough to edit on their own! Especially if asked politely...
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Postby Grania » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:09 pm

Kosma [PL] wrote:
Phantas wrote:I just wondered...what about the short version of it: OMG?

Would that be edited out as well? :shock:

Not to mention 'OMFG'.

For me those two should be edited out (or, better, not used at all) - they are more appropriate for some IRC channels (the OMFG L000L PWNT!!!!111 style ones), not Moya forum.


Until now I've spoken as me, now I'm speaking as a moderator :) friendly one :wink: like we all are here.

I wouldn't edit out "OMG", I don't see the point; I've never seen the version above used, but I would consider editing it, because of the way it could be interpreted which I find excessively unpleasant - I don't want to hear it, even inside my own head! That isn't to say I would edit - I don't generally edit posts at the drop of a hat :)

Just to address a couple of the other points that have come up, from a moderator's point of view - but first I'd like to say I consider myself first and foremost a forum member; you're all my friends here and I don't want to think any of you feel I'm different or treat anything differently just because I happen to be honoured with a postition as a moderator. I like seeing the friendship and fun on this forum, I like being a part of it and what I do is orientated towards preserving and encouraging that - I want you all to feel you've got nice mods! :wink: :D

OK, so back on track.
Skippy used the phrase 'reprimand' I'd just like to say that an edit to a post isn't a reprimand at all! We're just being careful - there IS no form of punishment here! If anyone feels hard-done-by by mods I urge them to come forward about it! There's no sense in bottling up these things, we'd all like to see it settled on good terms :)
As for PMs - Whenever I edit a post, I will send a pm to whoever's post I've edited, and I think it is the same for all the moderators here. I consider it a matter of fairness and courtesy and would never dream of doing anything else. I always explain what I've done, clearly why I've done it, and ensure that the person is aware they are very welcome to talk to me about it if they so wish - and they are!! I would hate to think that someone was unhappy about something I'd done but wouldn't say about it!

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that - everyone, PLEASE don't feel we're 'big bad mods' for want of a better phrase, all we want is the forum to be the happy place it is!
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Postby the whistleplayer » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:59 pm

Angoid wrote:Just reading through this since I last looked here, and while I still hold that taking the Lord's name in vain should be edited, it should also be pointed out that a PM would be sent to anyone whose posts have been edited in this way advising them of the fact, and maybe including a link to the post in question.


I wouldn't like any moderator editing my posts even when he or she would pm me about it afterwards. I think the appropriate action would be that a moderator would pm me and ask me to edit my own post. I still object to the mere editing of someone else's post by a moderator.

Angoid wrote:And the "smelly S word" would be ..... ? Sorry, no offence intended, but does this not highlight the exact point? My guess is that you didn't use the word in question because you know it would cause offence to some people, even though everyone here knows exactly what word you meant. It's exactly the same with using "Oh my goodness!" or "Oh gosh!"


So if everyone knows what we mean if we say 'oh my goodness' or the S word.... why would we not write what we mean? That sounds hypocritical to me. If you don't want to use the word 'God' in vain, you shouldn't use any references to the word either.
By the way, the word 'God' is not a name, it's a title, an attribution. Just like the word 'goodness'. So linguistically and theologically it doesn't make any difference which of the two you use.

Angoid wrote:Therefore, to me, this emphasises that if people don't want their language moderated out, don't use language that you intuitively know will offend other people.


That's putting it the other way around. It's like: 'if you don't want me to do this, you should to that' 'If you don't want me to hit you, you should do as I say or else..' (to put it more extreme)
I still object to other people editing my posts. I don't care if they're moderators, and I'm not saying I don't trust the moderators of this forum, but I just don't want my posts to possibly be edited just like that (for whatever reason!), even if I get notified of it afterwards.
If someone thinks I put something in my post that is offensive in any way, whether that person is a moderator or not, he or she should pm me and explain why he or she thinks that I should edit my post. If I agree, I will edit it, if I don't agree, I will not. If that's a problem for that person, he or she should contact the administrator, who will then undertake the appropriate action.
This way we can keep this a clean forum. Today, it's about language that's offensive to a group of people. What will it be next? It's a slippery slope, something quite complicated because it involves the freedom of speech on one hand and moral objections to offending others on the other hand.
I also think that because there are so many moderators now, it's even more important that they are very careful in the way they edit and modify things. It's easy to loose track of things otherwise.
Last edited by the whistleplayer on Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby AndyPandy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:04 pm

skippy wrote:I am against such changes by moderators. It smacks of political correctness to me, and I do not understand the need for it.


I completely agree with Skippy on this one there is no need to edit posts in this case. I think the only time posts should be edited is in the case of serious bad language or abusing members.

I'm not religious at all so "Oh my God!" would not offend me one bit. Also that saying is not meant as offensive when I use it or anyone else uses it.

I will fight for freedom of speech always, I may not agree with what people post here sometimes but I'll stand up for the right for them to say it! :P
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Postby Turlough » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:08 pm

For my own part, I've fallen out of the habit of "oaths", ie taking the Lord's Name in vain, but have know others who do all the time.

I once read in a sig-line (elsewhere), "Profanity is a small mind's attempt to be forceful." Tolkien described such language as "orc-minded", "deary and repititive, so far removed from good as to be lacking even in verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." G, you English have a lovely way of understating and even euphemizing strong emotions, something I've tried to learn.

It just occurred to me: suppose someone posted with,"Mon Dieu!", "Por Dios!", or "Du Lieber Gott!"?

Anyway we do have our emoticons :o :o :shock: :shock: :x :x to take care of such situations. Maybe a Mod could plug in one of those to replace an "oath".
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Postby nessieq » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:39 pm

I kind of resent the term 'political correctness'... no offense intended- but surely a forum is about respecting other people's opinions.. I know that if someone was really offended by something and I knew that, I would avoid saying it out of manners- regardless of what it was and what stance on anything it indicated.. That part's up to them, but I'd respect their choice on it and would avoid offending them.. So, regardless of me being a Christian or not, I wouldn't say oh my G*d simply because I know other people would be offended by it.. I wouldn't use derrogatory terms to describe people, I wouldn't swear and I wouldn't make any bold political statements- simply because there's the potential to cause upset.. and with religion, it's like the most important thing in a lot of peoples lives... so to me, it's like the uber insult to slag that off or disrespect it. I dunno, I just think it's rude apart from anything else, as well as disrespectful. I'd like to think that people on this forum respect one another.. so surely they can respect religious beliefs?? I dunno- maybe not, that's just my slant on the subject, thought I'd throw it into the mixing pot.
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Postby skippy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:23 pm

Just a respectful hug to (Grania) and (Nessie) :)
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Postby nessieq » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:25 pm

Aaaw, back at ya skip ((((skippy))))) don't want this to turn into an argument, but I think it's important we all share our opinions, dont you guys?
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Postby Grania » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:41 pm

((((((((Skippy)))))))) thank you, that makes me feel so much better about this :)
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